Originally Posted by Dame Laureline

The last couple of pages are full of ideas of counters against shouts, of how they're unstrippable, so I prefer to advise against :mrgreen:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

We've already discussed this: sure, there are some counters, but they're nowhere near as common as enchantment and hex removal.

Most of these counters are hexes themselves and can be easily removed from the Paragon, while, say, a stripped enchantment is gone unless you reapply it. Also, those are preventive counters. Once you're out of that Well, or are cleaned of that Hex, you get your buffs up and nothing can remove them.

SS and VoR affect the Paragon as well, sure thing, but then again, they affect pretty much anyone and can be removed.

Originally Posted by Lanier

the nomeclature of a skill isn't nearly as important as balance.

That said, you have to remember that another major, major weakness of the motivation chants is that they can't be controlled by the paragon. Im not saying that the chants should lose their conditions, im saying that the conditions should be different and should be changed in a way that the paragon can control when the effect occurs.

Originally Posted by Lanier

Although ritualists do have that unique ability to do many things good at the same time, that does not mean they make a wasted team slot as a pure resto rit, a pure spirit spammer, or a pure channeler.

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

I ( and some others too ) already stated WHY those suggestions fail . They are based on a flawed logic , like saying 2+2=7. Repeating it in every post is not worth , check them.

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Who disagrees with that ? not me dude , not me. Motivation NEEDS a boost in ways of casting ti ... wait , im repeating myself again and you dont want that right ?.
I ( and many ppl ) disagree with those changes in that wiki page of the OP. Those are not changes , those are not boosts , those are bloody overpowered skills that are about 80% of times BETTER than any other skill of any other class that does something similar ....... no , that is not the way.
You simply CANT take any skill you want and go like :
- Mmmm this DPS skill , i want it to be the same like warriors X skill
- Aham , this blocking chant , i want it to be better than aegis and any monk stuff related to blocking
- This healing skill .... i want it to be better than any Rit spirit that does that.
And so on . If you do so , you would have better skills at doing X, Y and Z task that almost any other class and that pal , its by definition unbalanced.

Quoting Halendt once again.....
I agree Paragons need help and I'm glad they'll be seeing attention. I just don't think everything that's being suggested here is perfectly reasonable. Some proposals need some revision, which is exactly what me, Desert Rose and Tenebrae have been saying since #201. I think Paragons should be made viable again, not simply overpowered.

Originally Posted by Smith23

God how many times have someone suggested fixing Paragons on this site? If Anet hasn't already "fix" them yet they aren't going to anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Khomet Si Netjer, there's edit and multi-quote buttons.

Originally Posted by Commander Kanen

Im not shure if its this thred or another one, but i mentioned a couple of idea's that arnt overpowerd but makes para more usefull.

i will have to dig out the page and post it.

Alot of the skills i compared to are monk spells. simmilar effect and recharge with about the same energy cost. (i also took leadership energy gain into considertion)

Para is my main and has been from the release of NF. and yes they do get nerfd alot and they can be a pain as you are restricted on builds. (I mean SY is the best skill for para pve and thats a war skill)

Altho you can put out alot of good heals with serpents quickness or Assassins Promis on your bar.

The biggest problem i came to while trying out heal builds for para is the lack of direct healing. And direct prot for that matter. Also Ally healing /protting on some missions is hard with paragon's

For an example:
Skills that party heal like Song of Restoration Look nice but infact are wasted. Slow recharge and doesnt Directly affect the party member(s) thats taking the hate, (they may be unable to use a skill/spell to get the benefit of the heal while the rest of the team doesnt need healing but get the hp)

Here is a link to some ideas we were all throwing around a while back.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/c...tml?t=10424144

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

No, it's not MY problem. It's THE problem.

You fail to see why most Paragon skill look subpar when compared to other classes. Well, this is the reason why their buffs are weaker. Since, as you say, we can't expect this mechanic to change, you should stop making direct comparisons between classes. Other classes have stronger buffs and indirect defenses that have multiple counters (you know, that enchantment and hex removal are really frequent, do you?), the Paragon has weaker buffs that compensate this weakness with advantages such as unremovability, uninterruptability and easy party-wide diffusion. You can expect tweaks to make Paragon skills more viable and I'm all for it, but you shouldn't expect Paragon skills to become directly comparable to other classes' skills, because that would simply be unbalanced for the reason stated above.

I agree Paragons need help and I'm glad they'll be seeing attention. I just don't think everything that's being suggested here is perfectly reasonable. Some proposals need some revision, which is exactly what me, Desert Rose and Tenebrae have been saying since #201. I think Paragons should be made viable again, not simply overpowered.

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

I ( and many ppl ) disagree with those changes in that wiki page of the OP. Those are not changes , those are not boosts , those are bloody overpowered skills that are about 80% of times BETTER than any other skill of any other class that does something similar ....... no , that is not the way.
You simply CANT take any skill you want and go like :
1- Mmmm this DPS skill , i want it to be the same like warriors X skill
2- Aham , this blocking chant , i want it to be better than aegis and any monk stuff related to blocking
3- This healing skill .... i want it to be better than any Rit spirit that does that.
And so on . If you do so , you would have better skills at doing X, Y and Z task that almost any other class and that pal , its by definition unbalanced.

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Well since they aren't MY changes I don't agree with everything in them either. I agree that they aren't perfect but I think at least a few of his skill ideas are worth looking at. If anet did end up using some of his skill ideas and it became overpowered they could just nerf it afterwards.

In any case maybe this thread being active as it is will motivate anet to fix para's quicker? Let's hope eh?

Originally Posted by Lanier

Anet has said that their next focus is going to be on dervishes, paragons, and smite monks.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

But as you have explained above, any character that uses shouts and anthems is overpowered by definition because such buffs cannot be removed. This being the case, what would you do to fix it?

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

From another point of view, I'll make the case that for many of the warrior and paragon buffs the fact that they are unremovable is largely irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Imagine that you have some skills that will completely remove shout effects from a target...

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

now with that in mind, let's examine potential uses of such skills. The anthems typically have a recharge of 10 seconds, so anything you managed to strip would be reapplied very quickly... trying to strip Order of Pain, Order of the Vampire, etc. would be similarly pointless as it would be reapplied as soon as you stripped it from someone. The shouts such as Go For The Eyes, TPIY, Stand Your Ground, Never Surrender also end quickly and are reapplied quickly and besides that are hardly worth stripping. Save Yourselves falls into this category as well... even if you allow ways of stripping it off, it will be reapplied within seconds, so this is really a futile effort. The important things to strip would be Refrains and Echoes then, because they last a long time. However I challenge you to find any of these that are actually worth stripping, as opposed to Protective Spirit, Life Bond, or Ether Renewal which are definitely worth stripping.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

There are plenty of effects in the game that have no counter, for example the weapon spells and spirit effects.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Additionally we have unstrippable spell immunity such as Shadowform and Obsidian Flesh which *still* exist in the game.

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

If we give them nothing to work with it's far easier for them to do nothing, since we all know that they have plenty of new stuff (gw2) to occupy their time. Therefore I want to give them everything I can and make this as easy as possible for them to implement.

Originally Posted by Lanier

Anet has said that their next focus is going to be on dervishes, paragons, and smite monks.

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I see a back and forth here between a few people. And I hope it doesnt escalate to the point this thread gets closed, because I think this thread is important. I agree that some of Khomet suggestions are a little over the top. But, if your going to constanlty critisize them try to give some specific examples of how you would change skills for the better.

Paragons are susceptible to all melee hate and half the caster hate out there. Soothing Images(rediculously OP when used by HM foes), Soothing, Vocal Minority, Well of Silence, Reckless Haste, Blurred Vision, Price of Failure, Crippling Anguish(I think every foe in PvE has this one), Meekness, and Shadow of Fear are very popular with HM foes. All those anti-adrenaline hexes prevent paragons from using thier own ADRENALINE based hex removal. Crazy right? Sins, Dervs, and Wars dont have any hex removal. But they werent made from the ground up to be a support class. I suggest doing something with Hexbreaker Aria to make it useful, but not expoitable by other professions. Something like, 10e 1s 20sr Song. For 10 seconds, the next time each ally within earshot uses a skill, that ally loses 0..1..2 hexes. Hexbreaker Aria would have to be made a Song for it to activate on skill activation.

Blind, its just one condition. But, it can be devastating to the Paragon and therefore the team. I think Remedy Signet should be changed to remove Blind and one other condition. See Antidote Signet

Besides those counters you have blocking stances and enchantments. But then add interrupted Chants and energy denial, its easy to see there is plenty of Paragon hate out there. I dont mind blocking, interrupts and e-denial. Those are common and provide balance.

As has been suggested before, the Motivation line can be fixed easily by reducing energy and recharge times. I like the Chant mechanic. However they dont see use, because they are too limiting. Besides adding some offensive support(increased damage), they could be triggered on the next 1..2..4 attack skills/spells/etc.

One of my major beefs with Paragons is that I think they should provide more offensive support. "Find Thier Weakness!" and Anthem of Envy are the only skills that a Paragon has that increase damage and they only effect attacks. To fix this for example, Anthem of Fury should give additional damage with the next skill that tagets foe along with providing adrenaline. But, that would make it a Song and not an Anthem.

Anthem = attack skills, Aria = spells, Ballad = after damage, Chorus = chouts/chants, Lyric = Signet, Song = Skill.

So unless Anet is willing to change the names of some skills, they are extremely limited in what they can do with most Paragon skills.

All I really want from the Paragon is 3 viable types of builds. Imbagon, Motivation, and Offensive buffs. Is that too much to ask?

EDIT: Dervishs do have a hex removal.

Originally Posted by Ugh

The last part makes me lol.

"Yea, it's clear that warriors, necros, ritualists, and monks are only way more useful than the other professions, and we really feel they should be shittons more useful."

It's nice that you're buffing paras and dervs, but seriously, if several classes are useful in many ways, they shouldn't be the priority for buffs. Rangers are still the shittiest PvE profession out there and eles aren't doing much better. At the rate these updates are coming, they won't get a buff until GW2.